Removal of Ogg Vorbis and Theora from HTML5: an outrageous disaster
Nokia and Apple have privately pushed to give Ogg the noose treatment (and so far succeeded) in HTML5. This destroyed all hope of having free (as in freedom) media embedded in HTML5 in an interoperable way.
I just sent this e-mail to the WHATWG discussion mailing list where HTML5 is being discussed:
From: Manuel Amador To: whatwg@whatwg Subject: Removal off Ogg technology: preposterous
Allow me to be the voice of the small Web developer -- which I consider to be the foundation of the World Wide Web.
In reference to: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1142&to=1143
The recent removal of the mention of Ogg in HTML5 and the subsequent replacement of its paragraph with the weasel-worded paragraph that would make Minitrue bust their collective shirt buttons in pride:
<p class="big-issue">It would be helpful for interoperability if all+ browsers could support the same codecs. However, there are no known+ codecs that satisfy all the current players: we need a codec that is+ known to not require per-unit or per-distributor licensing, that is+ compatible with the open source development model, that is of+ sufficient quality as to be usable, and that is not an additional+ submarine patent risk for large companies. This is an ongoing issue+ and this section will be updated once more information is+ available.</p>
is a preposterous and gross mischaracterization of fact (dare I say lie). At the very least, it's FUD.
It pains me to state what is and has always been public knowledge, and is being intentionally ignored just to "get the spec published":
- The Xiph developers were extremely zealous and almost fiduciarily diligent in researching all possible patent threats to Vorbis technology, and for more than a year they found none -- they even did the research before beginning to code, explicitly to avoid submarine patents. I know, because I was subscribed to their mailing list and read status updates of this research, practically at the start of the project. I also know that big-name software houses and media players manufacture products with Vorbis technology, and none of them have been sued. It's been what, seven years now?
- The Theora codec has had its patents practically relinquished by On3 with a perpetual royalty-free license.
- Ogg and its audio/video codec technologies are the ONLY free software media technologies with implementations widely available on all consumer computing platforms -- from WM codecs to Linux DLLs, passing through the entire range of hardware (floating-point and fixed-point) and OSes.
- Without guaranteed Ogg support (whose integration in user agents I think I already established to be sort of a weekend-level junior programmer project at NO COST, due to the ready availability of the technology in all platforms), authors will be forced to use patent-encumbered technology. Remember MP3? Well, with HTML5 it's 1997 all over again.
Ian, revert. This compromise on basic values is unacceptable, whatever the practical reasons you have deemed to compromise for. If you don't revert, you will be giving us independent authors the shaft. And we will remember it forever.
Here’s the position paper of the Xiph foundation, the makers of Ogg Vorbis and stewards of all Ogg technology. Let me quote a paragraph from them:
So, how do you make Theora and Vorbis popular? Why, by the very same process that made MP3 so ubiquitous: by using it and by sharing it. Only by advocating the formats will you see interest from the corporations. There is no other way around it. Let me write that one more time: there is no other way around it. Backup your films in Theora. Backup your music in Vorbis. Share podcasts and videocats in these formats. And do not wait for tomorrow; do it now. And by now, I mean yesterday.
There’s a lot of companies out there who do not wish to see Theora and Vorbis succeed, and they don’t even have to make much of an effort to affect them. The masses out there with their expensive iPod toys don’t care about Vorbis or Theora. Most of them don’t even know what they are.
Note that HTML5 in no way required Ogg (as denoted by the word “should” instead of “must” in the earlier draft). Adding this to the fact that there are widely available patent-free implementations of Ogg technology, there is really no excuse for Apple and Nokia to say that they couldn’t in good faith implement HTML5 as previously formulated. Throw your own theory here: DRM, proprietary control, et cetera.
The WHATWG had an opportunity here to eliminate the plugin morass (so 90’s) in favor of a baseline format that each browser could implement. Just as HTML specifiedhinted at baseline formats for images (GIF and PNG), this should have been an opportunity to suggest or even specify baseline free audio and video. And there’s still a chance.
Please, please help this issue get more public scrutiny. But if you’re going to exert pressure on the WHATWG, be reasonable — read the archives first!. And don’t let special interests kill computing for all — now it’s time to take a stand!
Update: the discussion at the WHATWG list is centering around the fact that Microsoft, Nokia and Apple disagree on having Ogg technology mentioned on the spec, due (I loosely quote them) to the potential threat that submarine patents may pose. My personal opinion is that you don’t get any freer than Ogg, and there is no such patent threat because major hardware and software players (gaming companies and America Online / Winamp, for example) have already shipped at least Ogg Vorbis technology in the past. Until this conundrum is resolved, they’re taking Ogg technology off the table because they don’t want to implement it in their browsers.
Since moving forward with HTML5 is a consensus decision, the thing’s just not moving forward until a viable alternative to Ogg is found (or, maybe they can be convinced?). Both Opera and Mozilla have preliminary implementations of in-browser VIDEO tags that play Ogg media. Read the mailing list archives to see the arguments espoused in favor of / against the idea, and read the comments below.
It really bothered me that Nokia referred earlier this week to Ogg as a proprietary technology, blatantly stating something so untrue. It also bothers me that Apple has expressed concern against Ogg. Both companies make great products — my entire life I’ve only owned Nokia phones, I was thinking about the N800, and it’s in no small part thanks to Apple that I have hassle-free Zeroconf networking at home — but this clearly puts the small content producer at a disadvantage.
I just discovered the position paper that Mozilla, through Chris Double (the author of the VIDEO embedding tag in Mozilla software), will be presenting in a few hours on the W3C video workshop. Interesting read.
December 11th, 2007 at 6:45
I replied to your e-mail here: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-December/013154.html
Thanks for your feedback, though. Please do continue taking part.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:27
It would be great if you understood that OGG is not codec, it is a container format for several codecs.
December 11th, 2007 at 7:53
Or, or, or it could just be that no one, no one, no one uses Ogg Theora.
I am tired of codec wars. It’s been 10 years of will my video play here, will my audio play there, etc. etc. H.264 is excellent, it scales well, it’s “free” enough — let’s declare it the One True Codec and move on with more pressing issues.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:15
Let them go through with it. It shows them who really is in control of the world - not the small (people) but the big (corporations).
By the way, a standard must make sense in the long run, and simplify life.
If html5 is crap for whatever reason (though I like the proposal to get away with DOCTYPE actually), the biggest and best solution is to collectively join up and refuse to assist it.
If a standard has no support of “masses”, it will die.
December 11th, 2007 at 8:57
[...] Bl og s [...]
December 11th, 2007 at 10:42
This is outrageous!
W3C, if you don’t support open standards you are killing the future of interoperability and also making yourselves irrelevant. Is the future web based in Flash, Silverlight and other proprietary technologies? Will I need a different (proprietary) plugin for each different site I visit? By shooting yourselves in the foot as you do, you will dictate the demise of open markup.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:48
I’d send that letter to USPTO. The problem is caused by US patent system that is so incredibly f*** up. Any company which has cash has serious reason to fear distributing any potentially patentable software that isn’t 20+ years old.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:50
Its about DRM, the big corps don’t want a media format in the standard that has no support for DRM, and the authors and standard setters of which are completely against adding DRM support too.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:58
Quoting from http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1142&to=1143 :
“it’s not a MUST because some vendors may have legal reasons why they can’t or won’t support it, and there’s no point making them non-conforming when they have no choice in the matter”
Questions:
December 11th, 2007 at 11:25
And how can one be sure that there are no submarines in Lake Theora?
December 11th, 2007 at 11:44
We need to start voting with Dollars and stop buying from companies who try to pull this crap. Sadly that would leave very little to buy. But so what? By refusing to accept having less choice for a short period of time we empower bullies to rule us for ever.
I write software and respect intellectual property, but once you try to force a product on people instead of letting it compete naturally then in my eyes you are admit that the intellectual property does not have the innate value that you are trying to derive from it.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:32
Opensource!
December 11th, 2007 at 13:17
Allow me to be the voice of the small Web developer — which I consider to be the foundation of the World Wide Web.
In reference to: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1142&to=1143
The recent removal of the mention of Ogg in HTML5 and the subsequent replacement of its paragraph with the weasel-worded paragraph that would make Minitrue bust their collective shirt buttons in pride:
It would be helpful for interoperability if all+ browsers could support the same codecs. However, there are no known+ codecs that satisfy all the current players: we need a codec that is+ known to not require per-unit or per-distributor licensing, that is+ compatible with the open source development model, that is of+ sufficient quality as to be usable, and that is not an additional+ submarine patent risk for large companies. This is an ongoing issue+ and this section will be updated once more information is+ available.
is a preposterous and gross mischaracterization of fact (dare I say lie). At the very least, it’s FUD.
It pains me to state what is and has always been public knowledge, and is being intentionally ignored just to “get the spec published”:
Ian, revert. This compromise on basic values is unacceptable, whatever the practical reasons you have deemed to compromise for. If you don’t revert, you will be giving us independent authors the shaft. And we will remember it forever.
–Adam Gregory
December 11th, 2007 at 13:19
Come on, it’s groups like yours that keep the big companies from owning everything tech. Please don’t bow down to apple and nokia.
December 11th, 2007 at 13:31
In a way it’s right to not specify media format in HTML5, that specification should belong to a recommendation of services in a web browser and not in the HTML format.
But the reasons for denying OGG and Theora by “license problems” etc. aren’t really valid.
December 11th, 2007 at 13:53
Why would we want browsers to bloat themselves with decoders for an inferior format when lack of support would force widespread adoption of a better format?
December 11th, 2007 at 13:54
Why would we want browsers to bloat themselves with decoders for an inferior format when lack of support would force widespread adoption of a better format?
What we need to do is to get Macromedia to petition to use h.264 for FLV. Then we’re set.
December 11th, 2007 at 13:59
Ian: thanks for your reply, I already replied to it.
Samuli: re-read the letter, I was explicitly talking about Ogg Vorbis and Ogg Theora.
James: you’re just ignorant. Browsers don’t bloat because the codecs aren’t installed in the browsers. Macromedia no longer exists. h.264 is PATENTED and can’t be included into a patent-free spec. You need to go a long way before issuing an educated opinion.
Jeff: that no one uses Theora (which is patently false) is not the reason. Read Ian’s justification.
she: the masses don’t dictate support. Browser manufacturers do.
LarsG: Theora has been cleared and irrevocably freed by the patent owners.
Adam: WTF?
Nils H: it IS RIGHT to specify media formats in HTML5, just as we specified media formats for IMAGES in HTML1,2,3,4. Agreed with the rest of the comments.
December 11th, 2007 at 15:49
[...] some discussion on this matter see this post that gives some background to the reasons why OGG fits the requirements and speculation as to why [...]
December 11th, 2007 at 16:47
[...] Removal of Ogg Vorbis and Theora from HTML5: an outrageous disaster Lift the cat who was amongst the pigeons up and put him back on his pedestal for now. (remove requirement on ogg for now) [...]
December 11th, 2007 at 17:52
Rudd-O: “it IS RIGHT to specify media formats in HTML5, just as we specified media formats for IMAGES in HTML1,2,3,4.”
Eh, what? As far as I can tell, the W3C HTML4 standard doesn’t specify what file types you can put in an img tag. Can you link to a source for your statement?
December 11th, 2007 at 17:53
[...] such a great patron for open source software either. For those who haven’t heard the news, lobbying by both companies have caused the W3C to strike a provision in a HTML5 draft which would make OGG Vorbis and Theora a [...]
December 11th, 2007 at 18:39
Kristian: I stand corrected.
December 11th, 2007 at 18:57
[...] Removal of Ogg Vorbis from html5 spec [...]
December 11th, 2007 at 19:38
[...] saber mais: Rudd-o, [...]
December 11th, 2007 at 21:14
[...] el W3c ha tardado bien poco en eliminar la tecnología Ogg como requisito mínimo en HTML5, si bien de forma temporal mientras se avanza en el diseño del estándar, “porque algunas [...]
December 11th, 2007 at 23:16
This is an except from an MPEG-LA press release:
“Owners of patents or patent applications determined by MPEG LA’s patent experts to be essential to the H.264/AVC standard (standard) include Columbia University, Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute of Korea (ETRI), France Telecom, Fujitsu, IBM, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia, Philips, Polycom, Robert Bosch GmbH, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Thomson, Toshiba, and Victor Company of Japan (JVC).”
So lets review the three companies loudly objecting to OGG, misrepresenting its status and continuing to fuel this debate:
Apple: Has heavy investment in H.264, AAC and DRM via iTunes. Known for proprietry hardware lock-in. Microsoft: Heavy investment in WMV and DRM. ‘Essential patent holder’ in H.264. Major shareholder in Apple. Known for proprietry browser and OS lock-in and standards disruption. Nokia: ‘Essential patent holder’ and heavy invester in H.264. Argued for software patents in EU.
Stop believing their lies! Don’t you think it’s weird that Nokia is complaining about patents while simultaneous holding numerous video related ones? OGG/Vorbis/Theora are open and as safe as codecs can get. Its patent risks are practically non-existent. It has no licensing fees. It is easy to implement across all major (and most minor) platforms. It is the format of choice - unless you’re Nokia, Apple or Microsoft.
Finally, nobody has mentioned that the licensing terms on H.264/AVC state that in about 8 years from now ALL internet H.264 content and software becomes licensable. Sites will have to pay to use it. It is NOT FREE, just ‘on hold’ until adoption becomes widespread and enforcement more practical. When that happens guess who makes billions? Nokia and Microsoft.
December 11th, 2007 at 23:57
[...] read more | digg story [...]
December 12th, 2007 at 0:20
Amazing that anyone gives a damn what these objecting companies have to say, considering their notorious history and lackluster support for truly ‘open’ standards.
Granted, the real issue is with bad patent law more than it is with individual greedy companies, but the point still stands.
December 12th, 2007 at 0:24
The browsers that were going to support Ogg/Theora/Vorbis are still going to do so, and the browsers that won’t do so now wouldn’t have anyway.
Plus, the W3C is doing a thorough examination of codecs and container formats, and when they finish, having Ogg/Theora/Vorbis in the HTML5 spec as a “must” requirement will carry much more weight. This may actually win over some of the current skeptics, so overall, things are actually improving.
December 12th, 2007 at 0:55
Well, what did you expect? Apple and Microsoft are distributors of audio and video compression technology, as well as creators of the associated container formats. Did you really think they’d sit back and choose a competing technology? But don’t worry; the W3C couldn’t create a real-world specification if their life depended on it, and HTML 5 is not going to be “finished” in a reasonable amount of time. Firefox and Opera will have Ogg support built-in, and the other browsers will support it through the object tag with external codecs; so you’ll get your wish anyway. Like everything else on the web, Ogg will become a de facto standard.
December 12th, 2007 at 2:59
Yes Rudd-o, h.264 is patented, but it’s also much, much better. http://www.osnews.com/story.php/19019/Theora-vs-h.264/ I guess you have to stay with your ugly free-as-in-speech solution, and I will stay with my not so free but better looking solution. I guess you get what you pay for.
December 12th, 2007 at 3:25
Well that sucks! Come to expect this sort of thing from big business.
December 12th, 2007 at 5:20
[...] Apple en Nokia verkloten de boel weer. Lees! (via het commentaar hieronder) Vooral schijnheilige Apple is verantwoordelijk. En Apple maar roepen [...]
December 12th, 2007 at 5:22
Nokia and Apple seem to have succeeded in suppressing ogg…
[...]Ogg Vorbis and Theora are two media formats — for audio and video, respectively — that could have been part of the HTML5 spec, and would have allowed for a standard method of broadcasting audio and video. Apple and Nokia fought and seem to have…
December 12th, 2007 at 5:26
[...] Read more: Removal of Ogg Vorbis and Theora from HTML5: an outrageous disaster [...]
December 12th, 2007 at 5:57
Thanks for the tips.. Bookmarked
December 12th, 2007 at 7:19
I thought I’d point this out, but I’m not particularly interested in getting tons of email from the list or getting into hot debate.
Dave Singer wrote: “Ogg is NOT a standard; it is an open-source effort.” Ogg is as much of a standard as is HTTP. But I guess Dave is unaware of RFC 3533 which was mentioned elsewhere.
“H.264 (for example) is NOT proprietary, but a multi-vendor-developed international standard.” I’m not sure if he knows what proprietary means. If it weren’t un(?)intentionally misused by FSF, companies would probably advertise that their products rely on proprietary technologies (because that gives the impression of innovation, which has recently been misused to the point of meaninglessness — but that’s not relevant). There are a number of known patents covering H.264. Those patents are the properties of their respective proprietors. H.264 is proprietary by definition.
December 12th, 2007 at 8:06
[...] read more | digg story This entry was posted on Wednesday, December 12th, 2007 at 7:05 am and is filed under Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. [...]
December 12th, 2007 at 8:14
Here’s an even better solution: if Nokia, Apple, W3C, etc want the very best standard possible, but also wish to be sure that the standard can be freely implemented without requiring anyone to shell out big bucks to big business, how about they negotiate a deal with the patent holders involved to make free, irrevocable patent licenses available to FOSS developers. That way, we get the best possible standard.
December 12th, 2007 at 10:17
[...] paso atrás vuelve a poner de relieve el peligroso cáriz que están tomando algunas decisiones que afectan a los usuarios directamente y que parecen [...]
December 12th, 2007 at 11:06
[...] and video. Apple and Nokia fought and seem to have successfully removed it from the HTML5 spec.read more | digg [...]
December 12th, 2007 at 14:50
I read your defense of Theora on that mailing list and support your position.
I dont know the people involved but some of them sounded either incredibly naive or are just afraid to say that hte emperor has new clothes. We know very well why proprietary companies like Microsoft and Apple dont want .ogg.
When it comes to open source and open standards, playing fair with others on a level playing field, Redmond and Cupertino speak the same language.
No one is that naive in business so I presume that people are trying to be diplomatic and not telling the Apple people that they want their own h264 and not some other video which they cant control. Its all about control with them. Paranoid, dontlet anyone see under the sheets levels of it.
But sure….lets wait and hope that Apple changes their mind. I can guarantee you that no matter what is said or done (unless lots of $$$ is involved, then Apple would make a deal with the devil, which is to some people the next step after Microsoft and ATT ;-)), Apple will not change their stances. Any wording about more studies or anything like that is stalling, hoping that this all goes away.
Coming from a company that used the names Nano and iPhone even though there were already in use proves to me that Apple isnt afraid to taking risks. And if they are, then I guess they will not be brining in any new technologies like when they invented the MP3 and the touch screen phone. What? Those werent new and already in use? Ohh, then Apple doesnt have anything to worry about bringing in new tech.
I know about ten reasons why Microsoft doesnt want .ogg or anything open whether a standard or format.
I dont know Nokia, I could care less about phones. What is their angle in all this? They own some patent or codec or something like that? I know they are partners with Microsoft since 2 years ago but so are a lot of companies.
December 12th, 2007 at 22:39
[...] Briz has detailed why he believes the decision to omit these open formats to be an “outrageous disaster”: (Given) the fact that there are widely available patent-free implementations of Ogg technology, [...]
December 12th, 2007 at 23:25
[...] Removal of Ogg Vorbis and Theora from HTML5: an outrageous disaster Boo Apple, and Boo Nokia. Apple’s been massively anti open standards for ever, but it looked like Nokia was starting to see the light with their Linux based web tabblets. Apparently not. (tags: copyright opensource openstandards) [...]
December 13th, 2007 at 5:43
So, if this finally is done, this standar is not a standr anymore, and doesn’t cover de user’s and programmer’s need, so the free software community will need to develop our new and real standard
December 13th, 2007 at 9:53
[...] enuncia las posturas enfrentadas, que existen en relación a esta cuestión. Mientras Manuel Amador sostiene, que la decisión de omitir estos formatos es un desastre y una marcha atrás; Ian Hickson, tiene [...]
December 13th, 2007 at 16:26
Apple’s position on this is very surprising. Apple is ostensibly concerned about some unspecified legal risk from Theora. However, Apple ships the flash plugin, including the VP6 codec, which is based on the same VP3 code as Theora. Therefore, if there were some undisclosed patent, Apple is already at risk. They would take little additional risk shipping a theora decoder.
This leaves only two plausible explanations for Apple’s behavior. Either:
1) Apple’s real motivation is to promote Quicktime by sabotaging Ogg
or
2) Adobe is indemnifying Apple against a patent lawsuit over the Flash plugin
December 14th, 2007 at 17:41
[...] “Nokia and Apple have privately pushed to give Ogg the noose treatment (and so far succeeded) in HTML…“. [...]
December 15th, 2007 at 3:42
[...] http://rudd-o.com/archives/2007/12/11/removal-of-ogg-vorbis-and-theora-from-html5-an-outrageous-disa... [...]
December 15th, 2007 at 12:26
Apple’s position is not really that strange.
1) They can monetize video websites by charging license fees for h264 content.
2) It allows them to shut Linux out. Apple can co-exist with MS by cutting deals with them, but can’t fight against Linux on a level playing field (see iTunes for an example of this).
3) h264 allows them to maintain DRM, keep users locked in to their hardware, and cut exclusive deals with content providers.
Allowing ogg/vorbis/theora to gain traction would prevent them from doing any of the above.
December 15th, 2007 at 18:15
[...] Amador has detailed why he believes the decision to omit these open formats to be an “outrageous disaster”: (Given) the fact that there are widely available patent-free implementations of Ogg technology, [...]
December 16th, 2007 at 12:08
[...] y en la prctica sin patentes. Esta es la estrategia pro-DRM del lobby Apple-Nokia. A punto est de excluirse OGG de HTML5 y debemos reaccionar: la comunicacin libre debe ser un derecho fundamental humano. Guardado por [...]
December 16th, 2007 at 12:55
Thank you for being a voice for an open internet. It is so wrong to close publication possibilities to the internet for people with limited money resources.
December 16th, 2007 at 20:39
[...] CSS Working Group to be immediately disbanded, Opera file an antitrust complaint against Microsoft, the HTML5 spec removes a recommendation for non-patent-encumbered video formats after pressure from Nokia and Apple, and all the old fights start up again. Fire and brimstone [...]
December 17th, 2007 at 0:32
i desire to my little daughter, a world with choices. a lot of choices. if i close any possible door, to any possibility, i have less choice to my daughter. i want to make a better world, making stuffs in my country, with my people. and communicate my people with another people over the world. i need options to do it. ogg lives.
December 17th, 2007 at 10:10
[...] en la práctica sin patentes. Esta es la estrategia pro-DRM del lobby Apple-Nokia. A punto está de excluirse OGG de HTML5 y debemos reaccionar: la comunicación libre debe ser un derecho fundamental humano. Noticias [...]
December 17th, 2007 at 12:01
This is typical example how corporate technology companies can kill the evolution and keep our development dependent on obsolete formats, only because they decided that their technology is better for us. Indeed, is better for their bank accounts, not for us. Probably is cheaper for Nokia to ignore theora, since they are even thinking about dropping real media from mobile streaming and using just wmv(which i find very unsuitable), its more than obvious.
We need free and open source projects to experiment and develop new tools. So on this point i can just say : let’s overcome our confusions from too many codecs, formats and overal confusions of end users from it, lets admit that theora is promissing ang good quality format in its class(compare to mpeg4), and let’s try to proove to W3C that they are not behavin as neutral consortium, but as a slave of marketers, a lobby for media concerns.
Co.De.
December 30th, 2007 at 23:55
[...] Removal of Ogg Vorbis and Theora from HTML5: an outrageous disaster [...]
January 16th, 2008 at 14:46
[...] en la práctica sin patentes. Esta es la estrategia pro-DRM del lobby Apple-Nokia. A punto está de excluirse OGG de HTML5 y debemos reaccionar: la comunicación libre debe ser un derecho fundamental [...]
January 18th, 2008 at 12:03
[...] Link1 - Removal of Ogg Vorbis and Theora from HTML5: an outrageous disaster [...]
February 12th, 2008 at 2:20
[...] decisión se ha visto influenciada por la presión ejercida por Nokia y Apple que apuestan por una internet móvil cargada de multimedia y de la que ya tienen los codecs [...]
February 12th, 2008 at 8:25
[...] menos que una presión masiva sea ejercida sobre el proceso de edición de la especificación HTML5, el mundo del desarrollo Web continuará evolucionando en pro del establishment de las tecnologías [...]
February 12th, 2008 at 13:47
[...] no formará parte de su estándar. Esta nefasta decisión se ha visto influenciada por la presión ejercida por Nokia y Apple que apuestan por una internet móvil cargada de multimedia y de la que ya tienen los codecs [...]
April 11th, 2008 at 7:32
[...] read more | digg story [...]
May 1st, 2008 at 8:45
[...] when Rudd-O’s article says, “Nokia and Apple have privately pushed to give Ogg the noose treatment,” [...]